Forum Hare Scrambles Scoring at the ICCR Keithsburg race, March 12 2017

Discussion of Hare Scramble topics

Scoring at the ICCR Keithsburg race, March 12 2017

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dirtynenow
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Could be karma for the IERA for scheduling an off-road event on the same weekend as Urbancross which you can sign up for now on LiveLaps!
Nicholas Nenow
Dave ktm 250xc
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"ICCR and Bill Gusse voted against this rule, all other clubs voted in favor of the rule change. "

Incorrect, the DMER also voted against the mandatory scoring crew.
I'm not slow, I'm just un-fast

All right, all right, if it will make you happy, I will overthrow society.
ben miller
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Excellent! Are there others who remember voting against the rule change requiring us to use the IERA scoring crew and equipment? That totally makes sense that the DMER would vote against it since Guilia is a member of the club there. I'll see if I can change the original post. If not, I stand corrected.
Thanks for correcting that Dave.
ben miller
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Dave, are there other points that I made you disagree with? This is the place to bring it up.
Dave ktm 250xc
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Nope, nothing else Mr. Miller. I heard yesterdays scoring was kinda a shit show from many sources. Just wanted to clarify/correct that we did not vote for this ridiculous rule.
I'm not slow, I'm just un-fast

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dangerdave
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Two tics used that EXACT scoring system for 3 years and NEVER had a problem that couldn't be addressed in 3 minutes flat so please don't blame the scoring system.

Also, the iera used mototally first and didn't like paying the 1 dollar fee per rider and switched to the current system.

Now because you can't find somebody to ACCURATELY run the current system you want the iera to buy another scoring system? Who's going to run it? You?

For the record again.....we offered to train each club,we offered to train the guys from iccr, but the iera decided to take care of it without two tics being involved.......

SO I WILL OFFER AGAIN TO TRAIN SOMEONE TO RUN THE CURRENT SCORING SYSTEM CORRECTLY FOR THE 2017 SEASON (ask around,somebody knows how to contact me)

That way the iera doesn't have to purchase another scoring system (which will be a grand total of 4 scoring systems)
brad kennard
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Dave Danger Who? Who are you .... who who..... who who :mrgreen:
ben miller
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Danger Dave, please train the current scoring crew. His name is Collin. PM me for his phone number. If you want all of us racers to send you texts/emails/phone calls and facebook requests for the next 13 days I can line that up as well. You've got 2 weeks until the Jefferson race to make a difference. We gladly accept your offer of training of the current crew. Thank you. You're the only one that can do it.
dangerdave
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I PM'ed ya
jec
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Hi Ben,

Any conclusions drawn from riders with 2 tags in their helmets are invalid as parasitically one can weaken the other or cause corrupted readback.

I do have a degree in Electrical Eng and have worked quite a bit with rfid in a past lifetime.

Ed
Woodsweapon
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I would recommend having the score cards at the Jefferson race along with the electronic scoring to make sure this doesn't happen again. There's no doubt the system can work and with Danger Dave gracious offer to do some training should help. I know with score cards some people get impatient while getting scored plus or yell at the score people, let it be known at the start line if this happens your score card will be removed and your done no exceptions. Buying another system is ridiculous if this system won't work go back to score cards at all events. The biggest hassle at Keithsburg was how long it took for results, quite a few people have a long drive back home and don't want to wait 3 or 4 hours for results plus if there is a protest in results. Most people got frustrated and left me included.
Chums
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jec wrote:Hi Ben,

Any conclusions drawn from riders with 2 tags in their helmets are invalid as parasitically one can weaken the other or cause corrupted readback.

I do have a degree in Electrical Eng and have worked quite a bit with rfid in a past lifetime.

Ed



Mr. Cox, I have used livelaps tags in conjunction with IERA tags for years with no issues, as have many many others. 16 riders yesterday had livelaps tags as well as IERA tags. From the data I've seen there were several mis scored riders with just an IERA tag and 3 riders who were mis scored out of our 16 with livelaps tags. That data is certainly not the smoking gun in my mind. The two systems are completely different set ups as far as antenna configuration, frequency and tag type.
If you'd like more information on the two systems and all the precautions that were taken to avoid any conflicts I'm sure Justine can provide the email I sent.

IF the two systems were the same using the same tags such as the IERA and the Moose Run tags or OMA tags then the answer to your question is yes they could interfere potentially. The issue with this is the IERA approved a new rule that requires use of our current scoring system unless the club owns the exact same scoring system, which they would then be allowed to use. So you can seen the potential issue using the same systems with the possibility of multiple tags that are able to be read by the same system. Ideally the rule should say you should use a completely different system that is unable to affect the current rfid tags.

In addition, when all riders received new tags Sunday the score crew did not install any of the tags in the correct orientation or location, the tag was handed to the rider who then put the tag wherever they pleased. The tag could have been put at an angle, directly on a carbon fiber helmet, chrome/metalic visor, or mistreated and damaged during the installation. None of the helmets were scanned for verification before the race. All of the livelaps tags were installed by hand in the correct location and orientation and scanned before the race, all of those tags were scanned correctly throughout the race.

The current and previous system has been plagued by missed reads, so this is not a new topic. IF the current system is so finicky that it can be negatively affected by so many variables it would seem either much greater care needs to be taken in set up or another sytem that isn't as finicky should be looked at.
ben miller
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I was going through the minutes that I took at the 2017 rules meeting and found the final vote tally for the electronic scoring/crew rule change.

Final vote tally was 5 in favor, 4 against.
QUINTIN
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Electronic scoring is great when it works but there have been so many issues over the years maybe it's time to rethink. Not to mention the $5+ cost to each rider for each event. We used score cards (we were the first in Iowa) for 20 years and had no conflicts or disputes. Yes I caught a couple riders cutting the course but showing it to them in black and white ended the discussion. Anybody that rode one of our races saw the results posted almost as soon as the clean up lap was done and the pits were usually empty by 4:00. Riders were given the carbon copy with lap times to compare with others. Backup wasn't even needed because each rider was responsible for their card. Maybe that is too simple in this digital age but it works.
ben miller
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Sounding better all the time Quintin.

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